Why track negative stats? - Guild Wars Forums

Baratus · Aug 05, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

I'm curious as to why ANet decided it was a brilliant idea to track deaths in GW. To my knowledge there is not a "/pvpkills" or "/pvekills" command to show how many kills you have in relation to deaths, so why track them? It doesn't even separate the PvE and PvP deaths. It's almost like saying "This is how many times you've failed" without cause.

I've been against tracking of this stat since the release of the game, because it serves no purpose without something to compare it to. If they had tracking of your kills to compare it to, it wouldn't be a bad thing. You could get ratios for your kills to deaths and such, and rank yourself with your friends or enemies. Still, all you can compare is the number of times you have died, which doesn't say much because an older character will probably have died more than a newer one.

So what is the point in tracking such a negative stat? I mean if there's a "/kills" or something to show your kills alongside it, then I have no problem with it, but it seems like a waste of 4kb in a pfile or an SQL database to me. That's 4kb per character. Think of how many megabytes or even gigabytes are wasted on this variable that does absolutely nothing. Seems like a waste.

Kattar · Aug 05, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Survivor title I'm guessing.

Although I'm not sure if they instituted this command before or after they did the title.

Griff Mon · Aug 05, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Other than the survivor title, I don't know. Kind of like EXP points, with the exception of skill point awards, it is rather meaningless once you reach lvl 20.

Sindy · Aug 05, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baratus

If they had tracking of your kills to compare it to, it wouldn't be a bad thing. You could get ratios for your kills to deaths and such, and rank yourself with your friends or enemies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff Mon

Kind of like EXP points, with the exception of skill point awards, it is rather meaningless once you reach lvl 20

There you go, XP/Deaths. Use that for your PvE ratio. XP is going to be better than kills anyway since it washes out all the low level kills you may gain long after you are level 20 and rewards you for big xp quests and the like.

This ratio is still useless, but it might make you feel better

.

Baratus · Aug 05, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

This was in the game LONG before titles. This was from the core itself, so I don't think it deals with titles. If it does, that effectively makes it impossible for older players to attain certain titles.

What do you mean by "kind of like exp points"? You don't gain anything from deaths as far as I know.

*EDIT*

Just read the info on the survivor title, and that sucks. I have four original characters from a time before titles, all have died somewhere along the way, and now none even have a chance at the title. That's piss-poor design.

Earth · Aug 05, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Well let's not turn this into another "my char can't get survivor QQ" thread.

I'm guessing it's because some people like to keep track of their deaths. I know I kind of like to keep track of them.

And you can compare, /age and /deaths.

If you both have, for example, a 3 month old character, you can compare deaths! Woohoo. Even when they're not of the same month you can compare by calculating stuff.

Pyra Fade · Aug 05, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

I definitely hear what you're saying. It's just a random personal stat that they threw in for people to look at and feel a little more in the know with their character. However, I really really really like the idea of a /kills counter

romeus petrus · Aug 05, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

mathematicallly speaking, if:

You have 1 mil XP
/death = 0

=> congrats you just maxed another title.

Simple enough?

MisterB · Aug 05, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

You are correct.
Tracking deaths was a largely meaningless waste of data that served no useful purpose prior to the survivor title. Perhaps it was a "just for fun" statistic that they eventually implemented a use for.

Baratus · Aug 05, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Well they should have planned better in that when they added this title, they should have reset player deaths or allowed players with deaths to earn the title as long as their deaths didn't increase or set it up so that the exp counter gets reset each time a player dies so that everybody has a chance. Thing is, they simply added this title without using common-sense. Older players will not delete and recreate their characters just to earn a title, and it is like a thorn in your side since you might be able to earn it, but now cannot due to bad coding. That's another topic though.

I don't consider the death-count "just for fun" unless I have something to compare it to. Comparing it to months is pointless and proves nothing. Comparing ti to your number of kills however, does provide meaningful data. For example, if you had 100 kills and 10 deaths, you'd know you're on about a ten-to-one ratio for kills, which is great.

I have viewed this stat as something pessimistic since the release of the game. I mean in what light can your number of deaths be viewed as helpful if you've got nothing to compare it to? If they've wasted 4kb (8kb if it's a 64bit var) for storing your failures, why not waste another 4kb on your victories? It's like they want to depress you or something. I'd rather see it removed or have a kills counter added, but if they add the kills counter they need to reset all deaths or the ratio will never be right for players with a thousand deaths already. Either way, it irritates me as a programmer because it is being wasted, as a gamer because it is a reminder of failures with no reminder of victories, and as a person because it seems pessimistic.

This is also something unique to GW, as most other MMOs track successes, not failures. The few that do count losses also count victories, such as WoW. That's why I can't understand why GW only counts your losses.

Bowstring Badass · Aug 05, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

/death is as old as the game itself I think.

MisterB · Aug 05, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

I don't think a kills counter would be especially meaningful outside of PvP, since it's easier than experience to farm. It would be another meaningless statistic like deaths purely for entertainment. This is just a game; I don't think there is any deep meaning behind the counter.

Many people have compared the /deaths to /age for a deaths per hour figure.

imnotyourmother · Aug 05, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

The Deaths is a great stat. My toon has died over 12,000 times and I am only lvl 17. Going for the LDoA title.

And about the game and the deaths things and the survivor title the game is on EVEN lvl with everyone else. Just pay the 10 bucks and get an extra toon and get the survivor. I did. It is good for the game.

DO you remember that they are going to make the titles ACCOUNT BASED? that means that all titles will transfer to GW2. so there is no need to say anything that you can not get the title to do anything cause they did not reset the old deaths. I believe this is a direct result of the LDoA title and the Survivor title being mutually exclusive.

It will bre great. By the way, my Survivor has over 4 Million XP and no deaths so far. I kill Snow Wurms for farming. Woot. I wonder if there will be a surper survivor or a special gift for me if I can get 1 Billion Xp without a death? think so???

Earth · Aug 05, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by imnotyourmother

The Deaths is a great stat. My toon has died over 12,000 times and I am only lvl 17. Going for the LDoA title.

And about the game and the deaths things and the survivor title the game is on EVEN lvl with everyone else. Just pay the 10 bucks and get an extra toon and get the survivor. I did. It is good for the game.

DO you remember that they are going to make the titles ACCOUNT BASED? that means that all titles will transfer to GW2. so there is no need to say anything that you can not get the title to do anything cause they did not reset the old deaths. I believe this is a direct result of the LDoA title and the Survivor title being mutually exclusive.

It will bre great. By the way, my Survivor has over 4 Million XP and no deaths so far. I kill Snow Wurms for farming. Woot. I wonder if there will be a surper survivor or a special gift for me if I can get 1 Billion Xp without a death? think so???

No no. They did not say anything about titles being account made. Atleast, not all of them, maybe a select few.

EDIT: Sorry, I can't read. Reopened, sorry.

Stc95 · Aug 05, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

If you had a /kills how would you figure that? Like I play a monk, and I have not killed as many bad guys like a warrior would do. So do you figure that a kill counts for everyone in a team? Or is it whoever gets the last hit in? What if I get a monster down to 1hp and some ele shoots a fireball at it and takes it out? Does he get the kill or do I get the kill or do we both get the kill or does the whole team get the kill, even tho they are attacking other people? What about NPC kills? Do they count for your total or do you just get a kill stolen, kinda like when the ghostly kills the ghostly in HoH, you don't get the morale boost.

Anduin · Aug 05, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by imnotyourmother

The Deaths is a great stat. My toon has died over 12,000 times and I am only lvl 17. Going for the LDoA title.

And about the game and the deaths things and the survivor title the game is on EVEN lvl with everyone else. Just pay the 10 bucks and get an extra toon and get the survivor. I did. It is good for the game.

DO you remember that they are going to make the titles ACCOUNT BASED? that means that all titles will transfer to GW2. so there is no need to say anything that you can not get the title to do anything cause they did not reset the old deaths. I believe this is a direct result of the LDoA title and the Survivor title being mutually exclusive.

It will bre great. By the way, my Survivor has over 4 Million XP and no deaths so far. I kill Snow Wurms for farming. Woot. I wonder if there will be a surper survivor or a special gift for me if I can get 1 Billion Xp without a death? think so???

Get it by playing the game, and not farming the same easy area, then maybe come back and suggest it.

imnotyourmother · Aug 05, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

" Get it by playing the game, and not farming the same easy area, then maybe come back and suggest it." said Anduin.

Is it not good to have no deaths? I don't want to die! I got this far. I died on 2 other toons that I had to delete cause they died before lvl 3 of the title. What is wrong with killing the Snow Wurms? I get lockpicks and Golds and goodies during events. IS that not what this game is about? I have taken many weeks perfecting my build to kill snow wurms in Hard mode. I even ran my main toon all the way through GW:EN so that I could get at Hard Mode. I gave away my end game weapon to someone in Ascalon as a fun thing to do. Was this bad?

I am sorry if I offended someone but grinding on Snow wurms in post or killing bears for ale in pre is what I enjoy the best. Just me and my sword.

Baratus · Aug 05, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Stc95:

You bring up some good points, but this isn't WoW. Just like XP is shared while in the world, so should kills be shared. If your team kills a mob, everybody on the team gets a kill added. Likewise, if your entire team is split, each player fighting one mob, say eight on eight, assuming everything goes well, the entire team would get eight kills added because all eight were working as a team, even if they weren't working on a single mob.

If you want to know how to figure out your ratio, you divide your kills by your deaths. For example, let's assume I had 1278 kills and 244 deaths.

1278 / 244 == 5.237

Therefore, my kill ratio is 5.237 to 1. Not good, considering I am actually much better than that! Still, give me something to put the deaths into a good light with. Right now all I can view it as is something that logs my failures, since I am not a title-monger.

Quaker · Aug 05, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baratus

I've been against tracking of this stat since the release of the game, because it serves no purpose without something to compare it to.

Everyone has there own approach to the game and what they think is important. You seem to think (but I could be wrong) that the number of deaths and kills you have are important. Others, like myself, just like exploring the PvE world, doing quests and stuff, and have no interest in either my deaths or my kills. Others are somewhere in between. I have noticed that some people seem to get unreasonably upset if they die, but whatever floats yer boat, I guess.

I don't know why they track deaths and not kills, and I don't really care why either.

Baratus · Aug 05, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Exactly, exploring the world is fun, and you're bound to die, but why only log that? I mean why not also log the number of bosses you killed or something? All a person has to look back on right now is how many times he or she died, since nothing else gets logged. That seems depressing, that's all. It's not that I mind having my deaths logged, but I would like my kills logged as well.

You see, logging only deaths puts pressure on some not to die. I too have felt this pressure with new characters. I imagine a perfectionist would have even more problems with it due to it being a "bad" thing. Then again, a masochist might love the deaths thing, but most of us aren't like that!

Aug 05, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13	#1
Baratus Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Elizabethtown, NC Guild: Deathkings of The Dark Citadel Profession: D/Me	Why track negative stats? I'm curious as to why ANet decided it was a brilliant idea to track deaths in GW. To my knowledge there is not a "/pvpkills" or "/pvekills" command to show how many kills you have in relation to deaths, so why track them? It doesn't even separate the PvE and PvP deaths. It's almost like saying "This is how many times you've failed" without cause. I've been against tracking of this stat since the release of the game, because it serves no purpose without something to compare it to. If they had tracking of your kills to compare it to, it wouldn't be a bad thing. You could get ratios for your kills to deaths and such, and rank yourself with your friends or enemies. Still, all you can compare is the number of times you have died, which doesn't say much because an older character will probably have died more than a newer one. So what is the point in tracking such a negative stat? I mean if there's a "/kills" or something to show your kills alongside it, then I have no problem with it, but it seems like a waste of 4kb in a pfile or an SQL database to me. That's 4kb per character. Think of how many megabytes or even gigabytes are wasted on this variable that does absolutely nothing. Seems like a waste.

Aug 05, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17	#2
Kattar EXCESSIVE FLUTTERCUSSING Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: SMS (lolgw2placeholder) Profession: Me/	Survivor title I'm guessing. Although I'm not sure if they instituted this command before or after they did the title. __________________ All seems lost now, but still we must fight on.

Aug 05, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24	#5
Baratus Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Elizabethtown, NC Guild: Deathkings of The Dark Citadel Profession: D/Me	This was in the game LONG before titles. This was from the core itself, so I don't think it deals with titles. If it does, that effectively makes it impossible for older players to attain certain titles. What do you mean by "kind of like exp points"? You don't gain anything from deaths as far as I know. EDIT Just read the info on the survivor title, and that sucks. I have four original characters from a time before titles, all have died somewhere along the way, and now none even have a chance at the title. That's piss-poor design. Last edited by Baratus; Aug 05, 2008 at 03:29 PM // 15:29..

Aug 05, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40	#8
romeus petrus Jungle Guide Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Urgoz Warren Guild: Legion of Doom [LOD] Home of PWNZILLA http://PWNZILLA.guildlaunch.com	mathematicallly speaking, if: You have 1 mil XP /death = 0 => congrats you just maxed another title. Simple enough? Last edited by romeus petrus; Aug 05, 2008 at 06:36 PM // 18:36..

Aug 05, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20	#12
MisterB Furnace Stoker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy Guild: [ban] Profession: W/	I don't think a kills counter would be especially meaningful outside of PvP, since it's easier than experience to farm. It would be another meaningless statistic like deaths purely for entertainment. This is just a game; I don't think there is any deep meaning behind the counter. Many people have compared the /deaths to /age for a deaths per hour figure. Last edited by MisterB; Aug 05, 2008 at 05:40 PM // 17:40..

Aug 05, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18	#3
Griff Mon Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In the Elfen Forests of Washington State Guild: Damage Radius Profession: N/	Other than the survivor title, I don't know. Kind of like EXP points, with the exception of skill point awards, it is rather meaningless once you reach lvl 20.

Aug 05, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37	#6
Earth Always Outnumbered Join Date: Jul 2006	Well let's not turn this into another "my char can't get survivor QQ" thread. I'm guessing it's because some people like to keep track of their deaths. I know I kind of like to keep track of them. And you can compare, /age and /deaths. If you both have, for example, a 3 month old character, you can compare deaths! Woohoo. Even when they're not of the same month you can compare by calculating stuff.

Aug 05, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40	#7
Pyra Fade Academy Page Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: sync dancing at Droks Guild: Elite Order of Grimm [EOG] Profession: E/A	I definitely hear what you're saying. It's just a random personal stat that they threw in for people to look at and feel a little more in the know with their character. However, I really really really like the idea of a /kills counter

Aug 05, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42	#9
MisterB Furnace Stoker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy Guild: [ban] Profession: W/	You are correct. Tracking deaths was a largely meaningless waste of data that served no useful purpose prior to the survivor title. Perhaps it was a "just for fun" statistic that they eventually implemented a use for.

Aug 05, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57	#10
Baratus Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Elizabethtown, NC Guild: Deathkings of The Dark Citadel Profession: D/Me	Well they should have planned better in that when they added this title, they should have reset player deaths or allowed players with deaths to earn the title as long as their deaths didn't increase or set it up so that the exp counter gets reset each time a player dies so that everybody has a chance. Thing is, they simply added this title without using common-sense. Older players will not delete and recreate their characters just to earn a title, and it is like a thorn in your side since you might be able to earn it, but now cannot due to bad coding. That's another topic though. I don't consider the death-count "just for fun" unless I have something to compare it to. Comparing it to months is pointless and proves nothing. Comparing ti to your number of kills however, does provide meaningful data. For example, if you had 100 kills and 10 deaths, you'd know you're on about a ten-to-one ratio for kills, which is great. I have viewed this stat as something pessimistic since the release of the game. I mean in what light can your number of deaths be viewed as helpful if you've got nothing to compare it to? If they've wasted 4kb (8kb if it's a 64bit var) for storing your failures, why not waste another 4kb on your victories? It's like they want to depress you or something. I'd rather see it removed or have a kills counter added, but if they add the kills counter they need to reset all deaths or the ratio will never be right for players with a thousand deaths already. Either way, it irritates me as a programmer because it is being wasted, as a gamer because it is a reminder of failures with no reminder of victories, and as a person because it seems pessimistic. This is also something unique to GW, as most other MMOs track successes, not failures. The few that do count losses also count victories, such as WoW. That's why I can't understand why GW only counts your losses.

Aug 05, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01	#11
Bowstring Badass Forge Runner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Character selection screen figuring what I want to play... Guild: Purple Lingerie - :D	/death is as old as the game itself I think.

Aug 05, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31	#13
imnotyourmother Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: in a house Guild: The Knitters Guild Profession: W/R	The Deaths is a great stat. My toon has died over 12,000 times and I am only lvl 17. Going for the LDoA title. And about the game and the deaths things and the survivor title the game is on EVEN lvl with everyone else. Just pay the 10 bucks and get an extra toon and get the survivor. I did. It is good for the game. DO you remember that they are going to make the titles ACCOUNT BASED? that means that all titles will transfer to GW2. so there is no need to say anything that you can not get the title to do anything cause they did not reset the old deaths. I believe this is a direct result of the LDoA title and the Survivor title being mutually exclusive. It will bre great. By the way, my Survivor has over 4 Million XP and no deaths so far. I kill Snow Wurms for farming. Woot. I wonder if there will be a surper survivor or a special gift for me if I can get 1 Billion Xp without a death? think so???

Aug 05, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37	#15
Stc95 Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: USA Guild: Spirit of Elisha [SOE] Profession: Mo/	If you had a /kills how would you figure that? Like I play a monk, and I have not killed as many bad guys like a warrior would do. So do you figure that a kill counts for everyone in a team? Or is it whoever gets the last hit in? What if I get a monster down to 1hp and some ele shoots a fireball at it and takes it out? Does he get the kill or do I get the kill or do we both get the kill or does the whole team get the kill, even tho they are attacking other people? What about NPC kills? Do they count for your total or do you just get a kill stolen, kinda like when the ghostly kills the ghostly in HoH, you don't get the morale boost.

Aug 05, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10	#17
imnotyourmother Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: in a house Guild: The Knitters Guild Profession: W/R	" Get it by playing the game, and not farming the same easy area, then maybe come back and suggest it." said Anduin. Is it not good to have no deaths? I don't want to die! I got this far. I died on 2 other toons that I had to delete cause they died before lvl 3 of the title. What is wrong with killing the Snow Wurms? I get lockpicks and Golds and goodies during events. IS that not what this game is about? I have taken many weeks perfecting my build to kill snow wurms in Hard mode. I even ran my main toon all the way through GW:EN so that I could get at Hard Mode. I gave away my end game weapon to someone in Ascalon as a fun thing to do. Was this bad? I am sorry if I offended someone but grinding on Snow wurms in post or killing bears for ale in pre is what I enjoy the best. Just me and my sword.

Aug 05, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56	#18
Baratus Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Elizabethtown, NC Guild: Deathkings of The Dark Citadel Profession: D/Me	Stc95: You bring up some good points, but this isn't WoW. Just like XP is shared while in the world, so should kills be shared. If your team kills a mob, everybody on the team gets a kill added. Likewise, if your entire team is split, each player fighting one mob, say eight on eight, assuming everything goes well, the entire team would get eight kills added because all eight were working as a team, even if they weren't working on a single mob. If you want to know how to figure out your ratio, you divide your kills by your deaths. For example, let's assume I had 1278 kills and 244 deaths. 1278 / 244 == 5.237 Therefore, my kill ratio is 5.237 to 1. Not good, considering I am actually much better than that! Still, give me something to put the deaths into a good light with. Right now all I can view it as is something that logs my failures, since I am not a title-monger.

Aug 05, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05	#20
Baratus Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Elizabethtown, NC Guild: Deathkings of The Dark Citadel Profession: D/Me	Exactly, exploring the world is fun, and you're bound to die, but why only log that? I mean why not also log the number of bosses you killed or something? All a person has to look back on right now is how many times he or she died, since nothing else gets logged. That seems depressing, that's all. It's not that I mind having my deaths logged, but I would like my kills logged as well. You see, logging only deaths puts pressure on some not to die. I too have felt this pressure with new characters. I imagine a perfectionist would have even more problems with it due to it being a "bad" thing. Then again, a masochist might love the deaths thing, but most of us aren't like that!